Sean and Dave Rorison on Kurrinda’s Yearlings and Two-Year-Olds

0:00 At the Hunter Valley farm

Sean 0:00 Here we are, episode 29 of Off N Racing. We're at our farm in the Hunter Valley, where all the Kurrinda Bloodstock horses spell, and I've got Dave Rorison from Rorison Media in Stridal, who's joining us. Thanks for coming, mate.

Dave Rorison 0:15 Mate, how good is it up here? It is looking very lush, and the horses are looking very happy. It's a good spot.

Sean 0:22 Yeah, it's not bad. We need, it's pretty dry. It's bloody dry, isn't it? But, we had 12 mil the other night, and, but you'll see when you go to Scone, it's just dry, windy, hot. Yep.

Dave Rorison 0:34 It seems a little bit more unseasonable than it has been previously. And what do you think?

Sean 0:39 This is probably the driest we've seen this place in six years, I think. Yeah, and we irrigate every day, all day. But there's nothing like rainwater.

Dave Rorison 0:50 Is there anything on the radar, but, like, looking at what we're supposed to do?

Sean 0:54 Next week. Next week. Like, we're getting the storms, so, like, even the rain that we got, it's just little storms that are coming through. Yeah. But we'll take anything.

1:03 The season so far

Dave Rorison 1:03 Talking about storms, end of the season for a lot of, you know, the industry, we're about to go into the yearling sales season, which, you know, for a lot of people, it's been a sticky year. But for yourself, it looks like you've sold out 95% of your yearlings, you know, into the season already. You've already got Shiki, who's joint favourite for the Magic Millions two-year-old race. How do you think the season's been so far?

Sean 1:30 On the track, it's just been our best season, or best year, since we've become a syndicator, for sure. Like, if they're not winning, they're running well. As long as they're competitive, I'm happy. We've had a few feature wings, which is an added bonus, but they're all running well. Horses in good order. A lot of credit goes to what we do here, I think. And off the track, it's been, yeah, I think for everyone, this year's been, sticky's probably the best way to explain it. Like you said, it's been a push. You've had to work hard, and we've had great results, and we've still had to work hard. It doesn't come to you, but that's just speaking from our opinion and just being transparent. It's been, yeah, it's been a push.

2:25 Is appetite for ownership changing?

Dave Rorison 2:25 So when we're saying it's like a sticky market, obviously we're comparing it to other years that may have been a little bit easier. But also, as a part of that, yearling prices for the last 10 years have only went up incrementally, maybe 46% every single year. I think two years ago was the highest you would have paid for a yearling. On average, you'd imagine millions in the last 10 years. You know, that cost, you obviously pick up at the sales and you purchase the horse, but then obviously you're looking to syndicate down to owners who are looking to take on the experience of racehorse ownership. Do you see the same appetite for racehorse ownership that you've seen in previous years? And does it get better or worse when you've had a bit of success for horses like Private Harry, etc.?

Sean 3:14 Yeah, well, I think it just, people look at you in a different light, don't they? Like as fickle as it sounds, they want to see those results on the track and not just, you know, at country or provincial level. They want you there on the big days and they want you to, you know, they want to see that can we get the job done in the big races? Um, but we've been fortunate a bit of luck's gone our way and a bit of luck hasn't gone our way and you've just got to roll with the punches and, um, it's just been, I think it just goes down the line to like, this is a luxury sport. Um, and it's a, most people are in it to have a hobby, but, uh, whether someone owns a big building company and, and then their clients are either going into liquidation or not getting paid or, uh, and then that naturally affects people or businesses like us because those big builders or, um, a big landscaper or maybe, uh, accountants or financial investors or whoever they may be or farmers. Uh, farmers are weather dependent. We've got a lot of, um, like farmers and stations that are investors and obviously if they have a bad season that affects them, that affects businesses like obviously probably silly as it sounds, but like personal trainers or cause it's a luxury or supplement shops or getting, you know, retail in general or, uh, us and things that you don't need to live. Yes. Um, obviously your, your grocery stores and all your necessities, they always keep rolling and probably some for tobacconist and alcohol and like, um, that rolls through, but it's the luxury items. Uh, people go, Oh, do I need that? But our job is to just focus on what we can control. Um, and, um, we're just very lucky. We've got a fantastic ownership base, a good database, and we just try and supply the best service possible. Um, and in saying that next year, it's going to be really interesting with the feedback that I've heard so far, like, will the sales be soft? Like, I don't know what you said, but everyone says, Oh, it's going to be soft. I don't think they'll be soft. I just think people are going to be cautious. Yeah. The passing rate will be greater. Yeah. I think it has to be, there's no money around. Um, if syndicators or trainers are just pulling back even 20%, that's a big margin to fill. If you have 500 buyers that, that are pulling back even 10%, um, the passing rates might be higher, or I think they will be, or the reserves that were there, they're going to have to be lowered. The expectations, it's, it's going to be interesting.

6:02 The yearling spend

Dave Rorison 6:02 And looking at your results of the season, it's, you know, the yearling season, it's now, they're now two year olds. Um, and having a bit of a look at what you've got so far. So you, the most you spent on a yearling this year was 420,000. Um, and that was the filly that we're talking about, Shiki. Um, but your average, what do you think your average was this year you spent? Oh, across, I think it was 17 yearlings you purchased. Yep.

Sean 6:33 Um, 190?

Dave Rorison 6:35 No, 162.

Sean 6:37 Oh, that's quite…

Dave Rorison 6:38 Which is good, which is, you know, it's a good…

Sean 6:40 It's in the medium range, isn't it? Yeah, yeah.

Dave Rorison 6:41 I would say if you put that across the average of certainly Magic Millions and Easter, that's below the average. And probably sits around that classic, you know, expenditure. So to get 17 horses across the books, different sales, different price points. And obviously you've, you've entrusted them with a number of trainers. I think looking at it, there's 2780 plus trainers in Australia for you to choose from. How do you go about choosing trainers? And how much does that determine when having success in the track? Huge.

7:18 Choosing the trainer

Sean 7:18 It's everything for us. Um, and again, I'll answer all these questions purely based on what we do for our business. Um, it's, it's massive. I, I won't buy a horse. I, I already know what trainer, whether we're successful in that auction or not. Um, I know where that horse is going when we're bidding on it. I think that's paramount. Um, everyone's different, but I think you need to know, like, why am I going hard on this horse and who am I going to send it to? Yeah. Um, I think that's so important. Who does this suit? Uh, who would it not suit? And every trainer has, has their niche. Um, but it's, yeah, very important.

Dave Rorison 8:02 And the one thing I'm, I don't know if because I've only ever worked in horse racing. So for 22 years, I've worked in horse racing. Um, and I've worked for a number of the leading lights, Mark Johnson, Gay Waterhouse, John O'Shea, et cetera. And longevity is always important in this industry. It's a very much a long, a long game that you play. Um, you see, everyone needs a better look in this industry, but how important is it that you're consistent in your selection process? Because I assume if you don't select the right horse and give it to the right trainer, they won't have success in the track. How do, how do everybody see the selection process as part of your, uh, part of your, um, processes?

8:50 Sticking to a system

Sean 8:50 Um, it's right out there. You've got to believe, you've got to believe and stick to your systems. I think if your systems are working, uh, do not change them. I'm a big data person. Um, everyone's different. Again, I'll answer this purely on what we do. I'm, I'm, uh, huge on farm data where their businesses are trending. Um, certain farms will target certain sales. Yep. And I think we track at the end of each year, uh, for the following year, before I hit the ground, where businesses are trending, like their businesses, because I don't know how they're running their business, but I can track data. Yep. Yep. And I can say, so X farm, well, they're going to, they're sending, they're getting better results the last three years at classics. All right, no worries. And then I'll see why are they not at magics or, um, this B farm is trending towards premier. That's interesting. So I, I try and follow their businesses trend. Um, you see how many metropolitan horses come out of the farm as a percentage. And, and then you trust your system, you with the matings and the nickings and, uh, the physical attribute that horse has. And then obviously you go through, um, the vetting processes, which, um, sometimes you're like very disappointed because you might love a horse and that it gets knocked back straight away. So all you can do is tick every single box that you can take, put it through your system. Um, and like our same educational system, uh, our same spelling, our same nutrition, our same pre-training. And then I know how all of our trainers work. And I think structurally how a horse is built is so important on what training you send it to. Yeah. Um, and whether they're precocious, whether they're not precocious, whether they're light boned, heavy boned, uh, I look at all of that just because I know, uh, I believe I know how our trainers work quite well. Yep. I just think that's important.

10:56 Can anyone buy a good horse consistently?

Dave Rorison 10:56 Can anyone buy a good horse and can anyone buy a good horse consistently?

Sean 11:03 Anyone can get lucky buying a good horse, but they can't, they can't consistently buy good horses. That's just my honest opinion. Like we all get, we can all get lucky, but I think someone that's coming off the street might buy a horse and get lucky. It might be a freak, but, um, ask them to do that a hundred times. And I think you'll see the results will go down pretty quick. Um, I think it's all about consistency. If you can consistently buy a horse that's competitive, you're a good judge. And I think the better judges are, what's the least amount I can spend to get a result? Yep. Not the most amount. Yep. Uh, a lot of the big hitters will spend big money and their results are quite awful. Okay. So, uh, what's the least amount I can spend for the best result?

Dave Rorison 11:52 What's the old, um, have you ever read the Robert Sangster book? No. Um, horse trader, the philosophy when I think Robert Sangster and the, the Coolmore team back in the seventies, when they were setting records in the seventies, which are still stronger than our sales now, 30, 40 years on, um, the man who buys the most is the man who buys the best or very similar. I've probably murdered that, that, that saying, but the philosophy was, if you buy 20, we just need that one Dane Hill, that one Sadler's Wells to make it viable. But obviously your motto is not that you have to go for constant consistency in your results. And, um, looking at what you've got this year, would you be satisfied in that market knowing that you spent 160 over 17 yearlings and 2.7 million in expenditure across the season?

Sean 12:45 I think it's now that you've given me, um, like the average, I think it's a great result. I thought it would have been that slightly higher. Um, but I think we'll, we'll see on the racetrack, won't we, in the next 12 months. And you can ask me again, but, um, with what we're seeing with the babies coming through, the two year olds coming through, um, we're very content and very happy with what we've seen.

13:09 The two-year-olds named so far

Dave Rorison 13:09 So, and looking at, um, the, the, the results here, there's, from what I can see, there's only four two year olds currently named. Where are they up to at the moment? And we'll start off with maybe with a written in money with Richard and Will. Yep. Beautiful cult.

Sean 13:27 By this, by the time this podcast come out, I'd say he would have already trialed this Thursday. Yep. Uh, what's today? The 15th. So 18th he'll trial at this stage. Yep. Um, lovely cults, uh, with glowing comments by the trainers and, uh, the riders that I won't name that have been riding him. But again, uh, that's all good and well, we need to see it on race day, don't we? So they can all come out and trial really well. And we just put a lid on it with the owners. And as much as we let them get excited, we just bring them back and, um, let's just see them do it on race day.

Dave Rorison 14:06 Um, Shiki, you can come back to her as the fourth one, cause I'd like to hear a little bit more of what you think of her. Sorcerer's spirit, spirit of boom out of, uh, Queen of Wizardry. Um, you bought that from Cambridge Studs for 300,000. Um, what's the thoughts on him?

Sean 14:23 Um, well, with him, um, yeah, I just felt that I was, we bought him in conjunction with, uh, Tony and, um, he was micromanaging us too much. Tony Golan? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, yeah, I just wasn't liking how it was operating. So I, I actually, um, sent the horse to Tony. Okay. Um, and I have nothing to do with that horse now.

Dave Rorison 14:48 That's no longer on the VIX. No, no.

Sean 14:50 Just, just with, um, yeah, like we stick to our, and that's an example. We stick to our systems and that was a new relationship. It wasn't going the way I liked it to go. Um, so I just pulled back and said, just, um, we won't want to be a part of it. Yep. And I think since then it's broken down, to be honest. I heard last week.

Dave Rorison 15:09 So then your average would be even lower again. If you take the 300,000 off it. Um, moving on to a little bit, obviously, um, a place that I would love to spend a little bit more time is my local. Um, the Acrobat Music Maker, he bought that from Willow Park Studs. Um, this time this was at Classic Sale and you for 130. Um, what's the thought on him? Lovely Colt.

Sean 15:33 Uh, he trialed last week, uh, went shin sore. Uh, he was, he was just feeling his shins just a little bit, but enough to still give him an educated soft trial and trialed up really well. Uh, Dylan Gibbons gave a good report. Uh, he'll arrive back at our farm either today or tomorrow. Uh, eight weeks off. Matthew, uh, word for word said to me, he's one of the nicest Colts that he rides in his stable. So, um, yeah, showing his good ability.

16:04 Shiki's path to the Magic Millions

Dave Rorison 16:04 The rest of them, as I said, are unnamed, but I'd love to hear more about Shiki. Um, he asked us to go out and film her, um, within the last two weeks. She's at Gay Waterhouse and Adrian Botts. She won the gym crack. She's trialed up since. Um, how is she trekking towards what I understand would be the Magic Millions two-year-old classic as her next feature star. But I'm guessing she'll have a few runs in between that. Yep. Yep.

Sean 16:32 She'll run this Saturday at Randwick in a two-year-old plate. And then she'll go three weeks between runs up to the Gold Coast in the Pearl. The Pearl. Okay.

Dave Rorison 16:41 Is that the week before that? Yep. Yeah. Yep. Yep.

Sean 16:43 And then she'll have the backup into the Magic Millions. So she'll be third up. Yep. Um, so we haven't spoken past that. We'll just get through Saturday first. And then, um, I think with Tim's feedback and Gay and Adrian's feedback, she'll, um, she'll be pretty hard to beat there, I think. And if she can get the job done in good fashion, we'll head, head north and, um, hopefully she takes that next step.

17:09 More of Kurrinda's two-year-olds

Dave Rorison 17:09 And with the rest of them, what ones would you expect to see before Christmas?

Sean 17:14 Um, I've got a, well, not, it won't be before Christmas because that's only, what, two weeks away, but I've got a really nice time terrain filly with Nathan. Yep. And a really nice Portland Sky Colt with, uh, Nathan Doyle. He's, he's probably one of our picks. He's showing us really nice ability. Kalani? Yeah. Yeah. He's, um, we had to pay a fair bit for him.

Dave Rorison 17:39 The 320,000, the classic. Yeah.

Sean 17:42 And I think that's going to be a cheap price with what we're seeing. Oh, really? Yeah. I really like this Colt.

Dave Rorison 17:49 Um, what's he showing that gives you that confidence?

Sean 17:51 Uh, just that natural precocity. He's one of the best moving two year olds that I've seen for a while, but has scope. Um, I believe he'll go into Nathan's at the end of this week. He's just in pre-training now. He, um, he unfortunately went shinny. He was probably a week or two out from a trial. So, uh, we just pushed the naming back and, um, but yeah, he's actually named Deep Horizon. So he got named last week. Deep Horizon. Deep Horizon.

Dave Rorison 18:22 Is that, that's not the one that the, um, the submarine went down with the, uh, the pilot had. It was like a PlayStation remote, was it? That wasn't it? I don't know.

Sean 18:33 One of the owners did the, so we, we send votes out for the name. So one of the, uh, and, and then we did a second round of votes and that was the most popular. So Deep Horizon. Well, Portland's by Deep Field. Yeah. And, um, Horizon Portland Sky. That's yeah. Play on words, I guess. But, um, just keeping our eye out for him and probably another Philly, um, and you might ask me about it later, but Gorgeous with David Pfeiffer. Yeah. I looked at that trial.

Dave Rorison 18:58 Uh, hasn't appeared this prep? This Thursday. This Thursday as well. Yeah. Yeah. She's, I loved her. I seen her at Sejinho. Yeah. She's, she's lovely. Yeah. Lovely Philly.

Sean 19:08 I think she could be, yeah, she could be quite, quite good. So keep an eye out for Gorgeous.

Dave Rorison 19:13 Um, the Captive on Happy Pilgrim, which makes it half to Private Harry. Yep. Uh, you bought her from, uh, Classic for 220. Obviously half sister to a group one winner. Um, how's she tripping along towards this prep? She's okay.

Sean 19:28 Her attitude's only fair. Um, she, her attitude needs to improve, but, um, that's just at the farm. But it's always, you get a guide of how they're going to be with how they are here. That's just me being honest. Um, the owners know that, um, she's quite sassy. She's in pre-training now. Uh, she'll head back to Nathan's in probably two or three weeks. Um, but yeah, she's, she's trending. We haven't really tightened any screws on her. So like when I say the deep horizon, um, I've got an opinion, like he was to the point of having a trial. Yep. So we knew where we sat with him. She's the complete opposite. We, you know, she hasn't even galloped yet. But, uh, but to be fair, like her job's somewhat done, you know, like she's obviously related to a group one winner. So, um, residually it's, it's a good result for the owners.

Dave Rorison 20:23 Um, one that caught my eye at, I'm guessing it's all sold out by now is a Russian revolution, Merger Lisa Lass. He paid 120, um, for him. Again, Rollo Park. That one stood out for me because I've seen his name pop up a few times. Um, what's his status?

Sean 20:41 Yeah, he still has shares available actually. Uh, he's literally, I don't know if the camera can pick it up, but that's him with half a fly bail off. Um, yeah, no, lovely, lovely Colt. Um, he just got back last Friday from Luke Morgans. Yep. Uh, he'll have three weeks or so off, uh, and he'll go straight down to Matthew Dale. Uh, lovely Colt out of a group one winner, tough, strong, like gives us that feel that he'll just run through a brick wall.

21:13 Keeping owner expectations realistic

Dave Rorison 21:13 And looking at when you purchase these yearlings, um, I know I've been an owner myself and I've been a racing manager. It's very easy for your heart to get ahead of your head. You know, you see the first report come in and your brain goes, what are they aware to Golden Slipper do? You know, it's just, as owners, it's, we live in a fantasy world, which is fantastic. Um, but how do you set realistic goals that you set yourself to ensure that your owners are kept up to date? Everything's kept on ground. All expectations are met, but you keep a little bit of spice, a little bit of, you know, a little bit of Walt Disney about it. How do you ensure that, um, you manage each expectation going the way through?

Sean 21:54 I think, um, whether people like it or not, we're just so to the point and so honest. And I just, in, in our updates, I just honestly just say, look, just relax. Um, if you, if you win a trial, great, but there's no prize money in trials. Um, we're, we're there to win race races. We want to win horse races and that's where the prize money is. That's where the residual is. And for Colts, obviously more so, uh, black type or group ones is where it's at. But we just say, look, get excited, enjoy it. And, but let's just see it, see it on race day. And when they, when they show it on race day and they come out and, uh, perform at a, at an extremely good level and say they win, um, we still say, look, especially two year olds. We just say, look, um, fantastic. Enjoy the day. Um, but let's, it's important. You need to see it again. And again, like they need to trend the right way. Yep.

22:59 What a pass mark looks like

Dave Rorison 22:59 And obviously they can take, they can improve greatly prep by prep. Um, what would be your hope for this season? Obviously we'll get Shiki who's flying the flag, but you get, as we say, you'll get 16, 17, two year olds coming through. What would be a pass mark coming into the season? What would be the minimum pass mark for yourself and your owners with a two year old?

Sean 23:19 It's a good question for the two year old. Just for the two year olds.

Dave Rorison 23:21 Cause obviously you've got, you've got, we'll touch on the older horses in a second.

Sean 23:26 It's a good question. I think again, like I don't want to sound, um, unrealistic, but I'll just be honest. I think Shiki is a genuine slipper chance. I think if she trends the right way, she's by the right siren, too darn hot. She'll get 1200 easy. High pressure racing. I think you'll see her go to another level. I think she's just been naturally too brilliant for her trials and probably her racing. But once she is able to take a sit and they've been teaching her to take a sit, which is such a great sign for a gay and Adrian trained horse that if they're teaching a horse to take a sit, they've got a big opinion about a horse. Yeah. Um, that's just the way I look at it. Uh, written in money, I think is a genuine, um, horse that could probably aim up at a race like that. Yeah. Um, and I know it's crazy cause he's un, unraced. Is that all right? Yes. Yeah. I know it's crazy cause it's, um.

Dave Rorison 24:25 That was just, that was just a carman that they just were not thin off. Yeah. Yeah.

Sean 24:30 So he's untrialed, unraced, but I think with what he's showing is he could probably trend towards that, uh, Port, uh, the Deep Horizon, sorry, and the Portland Sky Cult. He, yeah, he's another one that could be, whether it be, um, the Millennium cause he's purchased at Inglis, whether he'll be ready by then, maybe not, but that, that's a race that's just so, like we tried to target the nursery. Yep. Went shinsaw, um, but the Millennium probably sticks out and then I think he, he's a quality cult. Yep. Um, and then the others probably haven't been screwed down enough to make a judgment yet. Yep. Pass Spark, uh, that they all win races somewhere. Yeah. Like I'm a realist, but, um, with what I've seen so far, that's probably the only way I could answer that because they haven't been screwed down.

25:21 Is racing moving away from early two-year-olds?

Dave Rorison 25:21 Well, I think they were saying that, um, last year, was it, the start was something like the lowest amount of two-year-old runners in the last 35 years was last year. So maybe, maybe we're starting to see a little bit of a trend away from the have to be early two-year-olds. I, I went to the jump house at Rosehill Warwick Farm in Ranwick and it was a quieter morning than what we'd seen previous years. And obviously when you went to the trials, we were all done within two hours, which is, I think they were saying a few years ago, it was 22 trials only, you know, 15, 20 years ago.

Sean 26:00 They said it's such a big event. Yeah. It used to be huge. Two-year-old trials, you know, breakfast on. And I just think people are trending away from it, if I'm being honest. And that's fine. That's everyone's business model. I'm trending towards it. If I have a filly that wins a slipper, she's still a $5 million filly. Yep. If you win a slipper with a colt, it's still a $20 or $30 million colt. The, the prices don't change. If there's less horses to compete against, that's not my problem. All right. We can only compete against what's there. Yep. If people say, you know, they're not as good as five years ago, they're not. Data will show you they're not. Yeah. Our ratings will show you that, but that's, that's not something we can control. The breeding has changed a lot as well. Like, are they, are they bred softer? Are they bred weaker? Are they, there's, there's a lot of things. There's a lot of imports now. There's a lot of different bloodlines. I think, um, I think just worrying about yesterday is ridiculous. Let's just move forward with the industry and focus on now. And if there's no two year olds, well, you know, I'm, I'm cheering. Like at the end of the day, you can only beat who's there and you can only compete against who's there and, um, everyone's got their opinions, but the pedigree page doesn't say otherwise.

27:14 A late bloomer's progress

Dave Rorison 27:14 And talking about Colts, this kind of, a quiet two year old year, but showing something, but improved into the three year old year. Uh, I think hidden motive has to be an absolute poster child for that. Um, from memory, I think he ran fourth on a breeders plate.

Sean 27:33 Unlucky not to win, but fourth on a breeders plate. Um, and he's run in the heritage. I think he ran fifth. He's lead up run to the Roman consul. That was better than his win. It was huge. It was just, it was a bit of a hidden run too. Um, you know, wide gate, trap deep, worked. Tommy Berry had, um, you know, 20 out of 10 to keep as wide. Um, I believe on Michael Friedman's horse, the slipper winner. Yep. And, um, and we got beat 1.1 or something. And then we came out, drew a gate, dictated one. So, and then he just felt the ground in, in Melbourne. He just jarred up on a good three. It was probably a firm two. Um, cause he is quite a heavy, heavy horse. So, um, yeah, he, man, he's, he's true. Where is his ceiling? I don't know. I was just talking to Nathan then. Um, he actually arrived back this morning, um, to Nathan's. He was in pre-training for two weeks. Um, so I don't, we don't know where his ceiling is. Ideally he's probably, we can get a good result in autumn. We'll probably aim at like a second tier group one race. And if we can get a top three with him again, being realistic, I don't know if he's, I'll be honest. I don't think he's at that top level, but I think we could probably get a result at the second tier group ones. Yep. And that's great. Like he's a group two winning cult out of a group one winner by group one winner. Yep. Um, and has speed, which everyone wants. So, um, if we could get a third in a group one, I think that probably hopefully stamps him to be in the Hunter Valley. Yep. Whereas at the moment he's probably more a Queensland or a WA type of horse. Yeah. I think private Harry at his best and sound, he's the best sprinter in the country. So it was a *** show from the, from the get go. Um, but I won't go into all the details and we had our reasons why we wanted the jockey change. Briassa was on the inside of us and he kept laying down on Briassa. Oh really? Yeah. Whether it's male or female, it's, if there's a gray, it's his. It's got a penchant. Yeah. Um, and have their, you know, their opinion. I don't give a stuff what you've got to say, to be honest. So I've just blocked everyone's number and I will not talk towards it. The only journalist I spoke to was Ray Thomas. So everyone else can get stuffed.